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We have finished siman 20, which discussed the definition of makom as it regards kiddush b’mokom seudah. The Chayei Adam will discuss which foods qualify as creating a seudah in siman 22. Seeing that we are approaching Sukkos, there are some unique questions of kiddush b’mokom seudah which apply to Sukkos.
One question regards making kiddush in the same room as which one plans to eat, but leaving in between. As we have learned, this scenario creates a problem of kiddush b’mokom seudah. If the Sukkah is immediately adjacent to the house, the Sukkah is considered another room of the house. If so, it is considered going from one room to another within the same building, which we learned in muttar provided one had intention for the move during kiddush.
If the Sukkah is not adjacent to the home, we consider it as though the person is going from building to building, and we learned that, according to the Chayei Adam, intent does not work even bedieved. If so, it would seem impossible to leave the sukkah to wash for hamotzi.
There are a few solutions to this problem. One is that everyone in the Sukkah should have their “seudah” immediately after kiddush, by being yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah through wine or other mezonos. Another possibility is that everyone washes before kiddush, as we have discussed previously. Even if one does not follow this minhag the whole year, it should be considered during Sukkos. The person making kiddush should wash beforehand as well. It is not considered a hefsek between washing and hamotzi, since kiddush is a necessary part of the seudah. A third solution is to put a washing station inside the sukkah or immediately outside, such that one can still see the place of kiddush from the washing station, as we have discussed. Lastly, according to the Mishnah Berurah, it is acceptable to have intent when making kiddush that one will be moving from one makom to another, so that would solve the problem. However, it is questionable whether to rely on the MIshnah Berurah’s opinion.
Another issue of kiddush b’mokom seudah occurs where one makes kiddush in the sukkah, but then it begins to rain. They wer e planning to eat in the sukkah, so did not have intent to move inside (so even according to the Mishnah Berurah we have a problem), and they did not eat mezonos or enough wine in the sukkah before it began raining. In this situation, even if the sukkah is adjacent to the home, it is a problem of kiddush b’mokom seudah, because they did not have intent to eat in the house. They would need to repeat kiddush. The same would be true vice versa, if they made kiddush in the house and then realized it stopped raining. We will discuss this more in the next shiur.
Summary
- To avoid the issue of kiddush b’mokom seudah in a sukkah, if the sukkah is adjacent, one just needs to have intent to return inside to wash during kiddush.
- If the sukkah is not adjacent:
- One should have their “seudah” of wine or mezonos immediately after kiddush;
- One should wash before kiddush;
- A washing station should be placed inside or adjacent to the sukkah in a way that the original makom of kiddush is visible from the washing station.
- The Mishnah Berurah holds one can have intent during kiddush; preferably one should not rely on the Mishnah Berurah.
- If it begins to rain after making kiddush, and the seudah is moved inside, if they did not have a “seudah” of mezonos or wine before moving inside, kiddush should be repeated inside. The same is true in the opposite case. We will discuss this further.
The current series, which will cover Maariv on Friday night and Kiddush, is available for sponsorship. Please contact Rabbi Reingold for more information.
We are beginning siman 20, which begins the halachos of kiddush b’mokom seudah. The Chayei Adam writes that kiddush must take place in the same place as the “seudah mamish”. The Chayei Adam explains that if one makes kiddush in one corner of the room, and then decides to change to the other corner, it is still called mokom seudah because it is the same room. Nevertheless, it is not lechatchilla to do so, and one should ideally remain in the same place for the meal. If one had intent that they would be moving corners when they made kiddush, it is muttar lechatchilla.
The Chayei Adam continues, and writes that the first opinion holds that if one leaves the room, they no longer have kiddush b’mokom seudah, and even if they return to the original room, they would need to repeat kiddush.
The Chayei Adam brings another opinion, which holds that even if a person leaves the room, as long as they can see the place in which they made kiddush, it is still considered kiddush b’mokom seudah. We rely on this second opinion. “Seeing the place” includes not necessarily seeing the route which they would take to return to that place, but even if they see it through a window or the like, it is sufficient.
If one had intent to eat in a different room in the same building (the word bayis in the Chayei Adam refers to a building), even though one cannot see from one room to the other, they are yotzei. Although they should not do so lechatchilla, if they had intention to move rooms at the time of kiddush, it is sufficient. However, intention does not work to move from building to building, even if one has intent at the time of kiddush. If one ate enough at the first place such that they were yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah, they could then eat their meal in a different building, because they were already yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah in the first place.
The Piskei Mishnah Berurah brings that the Mishnah Berurah disagrees, and holds that even though lechatchilla, one should not move from building to building, bedieved they are yotzei.
If a person plans to eat their meal in the same place as their kiddush, but between kiddush and the meal they take a break and go elsewhere, it is also a problem and they would need to repeat kiddush. This is relevant for a sukkah, if a person’s sukkah is not adjacent to their home, and they go inside to wash after making kiddush. We will discuss this issue further in the next shiur, be’ezras Hashem.
Summary
- One should make kiddush in the same place where they plan to eat their seudah.
- If they make kiddush in one corner of the room, and want to have their meal in another corner of the same room, it is muttar bedieved. If they have intent for it at the time of kiddush, it is muttar lechatchilla.
- Similarly, if one can still see the place in which they originally made kiddush, even if they are in a different room, they are yotzei.
- If one has intent to move to another room in the same building to eat the meal, and then did so between kiddush and the meal, they are yotzei.
- One cannot make kiddush in one building and move to another building, even if they have intent at the time of kiddush. However, the Mishnah Berurah holds that one is yotzei if they had intent at the time of kiddush.
The current series, which will cover Maariv on Friday night and Kiddush, is available for sponsorship. Please contact Rabbi Reingold for more information.
We are beginning siman 15. The Chayei Adam writes that if one is presented with a kos shel bracha, they must drink from it in a significant way. The Chayei Adam defines this amount as approximately a melo lugmav, the amount that if one were to move the liquid in their mouth to one side, their cheek would bulge. This amount is assumed to be a rov of a revi’is.
The Piskei Mishnah Berurah points out that the exact wording used in the poskim is his melo lugmav, because it actually depends on the person. The assumption of rov revi’is is for an average person; a larger person would require more.
It is hard to measure this amount, but it is brought down that a melo lugmav is half the amount of liquid a person could hold in their mouth in totality. It is actually known as k’melo lugmav, approximately a full cheeks’ worth, because when one fills up one cheek in totality it gives the impression that the entire mouth is full (a melo lugmav actually means a full mount of water, while this is only half of that).
The best way to measure a melo lugmav is for a person to fill up their mouth as much as possible with water, spit it out into a measuring container, and then divide by half.
This amount is relevant for Yom Kippur, as the issur deoraysa with a chiyuv kareis of drinking is to drink a melo lugmav. Since it is an issur deoraysa, we do not simply assume that an individual’s melo lugmav is a rov revi’is, but it depends on the individual. This shiur applies to a person who needs to remain hydrated over Yom Kippur, but does not need to drink a large amount at a time (if they need to drink large amounts, this advice does not apply).
When it comes to issurim, we have a concept of hakal kal kodem. That means, even when there is a heter to transgress an aveirah to save a life, if one has the option, we prefer to transgress a more lenient aveirah rather than a more stringent one. For example, if one’s life can be saved through eating chazir, which is a lav, rather than cheilev, which is kareis, they must eat the chazir. Thus, over here, although any amount of food or drink is considered an issur deoraysa (due to the concept of chatzi shiur assur min hatorah), drinking less than a melo lugmav considered more lenient, because it does not carry the chiyuv of malkus and kareis for its transgression. In order to avoid an issue of tziruf (the small amounts adding up), one must take a break equivalent to k’dei achilas peras in between each drink.
The Chayei Adam continues, and writes that lechatchilla, the person making kiddush should drink the melo lugmav. If that is not possible, someone else can drink the melo lugmav. If that is still not possible, the amount of melo lugmav can be split among those listening to kiddush.
Summary
- Lechatchilla, the person making kiddush should drink a melo lugmav of the kos.
- If that is not possible, another person should drink a melo lugmav.
- If that is not possible, the melo lugmav should be split between those listening to kiddush.
- A melo lugmav is calculated depending on the individual. The best way to calculate it is to fill up one’s mouth with water, spit it into a measuring utensil, and divide by half.
