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Kiddush B’mokom Seuda – 6 – Defining Seudah (Klal 6 Siman 22) Hilchos Shabbos – S0182

D'var Halacha
D'var Halacha
Kiddush B'mokom Seuda - 6 - Defining Seudah (Klal 6 Siman 22) Hilchos Shabbos - S0182

We are beginning siman 22, discussing the definition of “seudah” as it pertains to being yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah. We mentioned the approach of Rav Moshe regarding people who eat by a kiddush on Pesach without eating mezonos or wine. Rav Moshe understands that there are two points relevant to kiddush b’mokom seudah. One is that if a person makes kiddush without having a seudah afterwards, they were not yotzei the mitzvah of kiddush, and the second point is that once a person has not been yotzei kiddush, it is assur for them to eat or drink before making another kiddush. If so, it comes out that if a person makes kiddush and does not eat or drink sufficient mezonos or wine, retroactively the drinking of that kiddush should be assur. 

Although the vast majority of poskim assume as much, Rav Moshe disagrees and holds that inasmuch as one was not yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah and must make kiddush again in order to fulfill the mitzvah of kiddush b’mokom seudah, the kiddush is valid enough that one may eat. 

Therefore, going back to these pesach kiddushim, the kiddush is sufficient to allow those people to eat in shul, but it is not sufficient to be yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah, so they would have to go home and make kiddush again. Again, this is Rav Moshe’s chiddush; the vast majority of poskim disagree.

We will clarify a few more points. 

We learned that wine is sufficient to be yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah. Regarding grape juice, the vast majority of poskim assume that since the Shulchan Aruch does not differentiate between wine and grape juice, grape juice is sufficient to be yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah as well. 

The Mishnah Berurah writes that it is preferable not to rely on the Geonim unless it is necessary, especially for the Friday Night kiddush.

We mentioned that if the person making kiddush is trying to be yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah through wine, they must drink a revi’is in addition to the melo lugmav regularly drunk by the person making kiddush. This point is actually a machlokes. The Levush, followed by the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, Magen Avraham and Taz all hold one must drink a melo lugmav plus a revi’is, but the Chayei Adam does not mention this point and would seem to hold that one would only need to drink a revi’is in total. The Aruch Hashulchan agrees. However, since multiple poskim all hold a person should have a revi’is plus melo lugmav, and this option is questionable to begin with, it is preferable one should have both the revi’is and melo lugmav.

We learned that according to the Gra, one is never yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah unless they follow the kiddush with bread. People have developed the custom to make a second kiddush when they are ready to wash for their seudah, in order to fulfill this opinion of the Gra that they have not yet been yotzei kiddush. Even though they relied upon the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch and Rema in order to eat after the first kiddush, since they are eating a seudah anyways, it makes sense to make kiddush a second time. The opinion of the Gra is found in the rishonim, as the Rosh seems to hold this way. Nevertheless, those who rely on the Shulchan Aruch, Rema and others that one can be yotzei with mezonos or wine has a strong foundation and can be relied upon.


  • Although Rav Moshe holds there is a way to avoid the need to eat mezonos or wine at a kiddush, the vast majority of poskim disagree.

  • One can be yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah with grape juice just like with wine. Either way, it is preferable not to rely upon the Geonim unless necessary

  • If the mekadeish is relying on the Geonim to be yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah, they should drink melo lugmav plus a revi’is.

  • Some try to fulfill the opinion of the Gra by making kiddush again before they wash for their seudah.

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