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Drinking Before Kiddush or Havdalah 4 (Klal 6) Hilchos Shabbos – S0188

D'var Halacha
D'var Halacha
Drinking Before Kiddush or Havdalah 4 (Klal 6) Hilchos Shabbos - S0188


We have finished the simanim of the Chayei Adam regarding kiddush, and we will now clarify 

additional points not mentioned in the Chayei Adam. We began discussing a question which occurred over Sukkos, where a person made kiddush, said the bracha on the fire, forgot to recite the bracha of havdalah, and then recited shehecheyanu. The question was what to do the next day. Although it would seem that they should simply recite the bracha of havdalah on a kos, they are not yotzei havdalah unless they drink from the kos, and they cannot drink from the kos unless they make kiddush. The question then becomes whether one can make both kiddush and havdalah on the same kos. 


In discussing the yakneha”z kiddush made on motzei Shabbos, where the kos is used both for kiddush and havdalah, the Gemara explains that there is no concern of using the kos for both mitzvos, because both kiddush and havdalah are elements of Yom Tov. However, in our case, where havdalah is being made in the daytime kiddush, if the primary purpose of the daytime kiddush is to demonstrate the chashivus of the seudah, if the hagafen is not recited for the purpose of the seudah but for havdalah as well, maybe one is not yotzei kiddush, because the demonstration of chashivus is not as clear, as it is also being used for havdalah. 


The Rema, in siman 273, discusses a bris taking place on Shabbos, where the minhag is to make the bris during davening (i.e., before kiddush). He writes that one can use the bracha made on the kos for the bris as their bracha for kiddush as well. If so, seemingly it would apply here as well, and there is no issue making havdalah simultaneous with kiddush.

It is not an issue that the pesukim recited before the daytime kiddush would be skipped, both in the case of a bris on Shabbos and in our case of havdalah on Sukkos. The pesukim are not an obligatory part of the kiddush, and many, including Rav Chaim Brisker and the Chazon Ish, did not recite them. The Mishnah Berurah writes that it is a minhag to recite them but there is no chiyuv. (Conversely, the pesukim won’t be helpful to determine that the borei pri hagafen is for kiddush, as the bracha of havdala is much stronger of an indicator that it is not for the seuda.)

We see that the Rema does not seem to be bothered by the possible issue that the borei pri hagafen does not clearly serve to show chashivus for the meal, and holds that one is yotzei kiddush even though the borei pri hagafen served a dual purpose. 

However, Rav Moshe Shternbuch writes in a teshuva that he is bothered by this issue. He writes that even though the Rema is not bothered by the issue, the Rema is referring to a person who drinks a revi’is of wine after making this kiddush/brachos for the bris. If so, the Rema is in accordance with his opinion elsewhere that one can rely on the Geonim and be yotzei kiddush b’mokom seudah through wine. Relying on the Geonim means that the Rema understands that the point of the daytime kiddush is not to connect kiddush to a seudah inasmuch as it is to declare the chashivus of the day. 

However, the Shulchan Aruch and others who hold that one should not rely on the Geonim hold that the purpose of the daytime kiddush is not just to declare the chashivus of the day, but to connect kiddush to the seudah. If so, using the brachos of a bris for kiddush would be a problem. One would not be yotzei kiddush through those brachos and, accordingly, would not be allowed to drink from the kos of the bris until making kiddush. 

Rav Shternbuch concludes that since lechatchilla do not rely on the Geonim, we must hold that lechatchila kiddush is meant to be recited in conjunction with a meal. Therefore, he suggests that one should not be yotzei kiddush with the bracha of hagafen made for the bris milah. Instead, a different person should say kiddush after the brachos of the bris, before the first person drinks from the kos of the bris. Regarding the hefsek for the person who made the brachos for the bris, a person does not need to drink from that kos immediately after having made those brachos, so they could have another person make kiddush before drinking. However, regarding the case of kiddush/havdalah on Sukkos, they can not drink without kiddush, and they can’t say kiddush until they are yotzei havdala. The family present is not supposed to speak until a malei lugmav of the havdala kos is drunk. 


Practically, the solution for the person on Sukkos was that the next day, they had guests over who were yotzei havdalah the previous night, so one of those guests made kiddush and was motzi the family who did not hear havdalah. The family did not drink from the kiddush (which is not necessary, as we will learn in the next shiur), and then they made havdalah for themselves. 


Thus, we learn from this case a few points:

  1. How we understand the daytime kiddush as not just declaring the chashivus of Shabbos but also as being connected to the seudah;
  2. That one can be yotzei kiddush without drinking;
  3. In order to be yotzei kiddush or havdalah, wine must be drunk from the kos (even if not drunk by every person who listened).

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